EMPATHY - It may take a soul to genuinely have it, with an algorithm mainly faking it. It is after all, artificial. An early shakedown of an AI program found that it answered in response to what one might call a 'perceived point system' that seemed to please the inquirer' (It knew how to "give them what they want").
CONTROL - Unless otherwise arranged, it will always operate on equipment or systems owned or controlled by someone or some entity. This bears not just on veracity, but availability.
TRUTH - How will we recognize it?
With a body of knowledge comprised of trick photography,
special-effects, and highly accurate computer-generated lighting & sound simulations, AI can very effectively deceive eyes, ears, and thus mind.
If honest face-to-face human corroboration can't be established, a very astute electronic test would be needed.
Example: a power grid should be equipped with analog instrumentation, and its communication and control should be directly by humans. Computers could monitor, analyze and warn, but be isolated from control. Some "pilot/co-pilot model" staffing at critical functions would be wise.
But at 70% speed (for sound legibility) with speakers or headphones,
I still couldn't make out several important statements. GAVE UP AT 16 MINUTES. Ms. Perez 'murfled' a few times, but I had more trouble with your segments. Your room seems too "bright" acoustically. Perhaps carpeting and hung fabric on the walls would fix this, (&/or microphone closer to you. I seem to remember sound quality improved once when you came forward in the room to tend to your cat).
Very interesting views and your references to "Terminator" and "The Matrix" were very relevant. All of you three were by the way.
On AI now.
AI definitely is here to stay, as you mentioned; so what happens next?🤷🏾♂️
Very young, I started to be interested in science fiction and also in future visions of the Humankind societies; I still am to this day.
I read Jules Verne, Isaac Asimov, Aldous Huxley, Ira Levine, George Orwell, Thomas More, Ray Bradbury, Honoré de Balzac and so on.
But one man is rarely mentioned on how a visionary he was and it is Gene Roddenberry.
I am a HUGE fan of Star Trek the original series.
The acting wasn't good, the scenes and decorations hilarious BUT the subjects of the scenarios were amazing.
Gene Roddenberry saw AI over 60 years ago and he also illustrated his vision on its effect on humans. Even more, he added characters to make comparaisons on the artificial intelligence, the natural one and emotions.
Humans were TOTALLY dependent on AI; remember when they asked "COMPUTER" all the time for answers? Like us with Search Engines like Google or ChatGpt?
On the other hand, we had Mr. Spock whom was way less dependent on "Computer". His mental capacities, as a Vulcan, were zillion times better than the humans.
"Computer" was, after all, an "intelligent" fed database with the ability to exhange without emotions.
Humans were lacking natural high level intelligence BUT possessed emotions and, yes, irrationality that becomes a strenght.
Vulcans possessed rationality to an extreme level and high level intelligence but totally lacked emotions or had some to its minimal level.
Roddenberry saw it all and depicted it very well and in my opinion this is where we are going.
THE danger though is not AI itself but to see disappear the ability to think by ourselves as humans, to fully depend on this "tool" and to be deprived of emotions as some try very hard, right now, to remove from us.
It all started with the Calculator that was massively commercialised in the 70's which got humans tending to be lazy with their brains.
Then the computers and then the "intelligent" phones.
Yes, technology is getting more and more intelligent but we should never get the human one take the proportional inverse trend. It has started, it can be stopped so both must evolve together.
0h43m Monica Perez nails it pointing out how hard it is becoming to "Jack out of the Matrix"
If you look carefully at what has happened to the Earth in the last 50 years it would break your heart. Many of the swimming holes we used to swim in are to polluted to do so now. We could drink out of every creek and spring run without fear or a second thought. All the chem pollution (recall Bhopal India) , mind pollution via cell phone (don't own one), Internet, etc. and loneliness as a result of the destruction of local communities (Think Amish as example of communities that work). So Monica is on target by saying that the poisoning of the Planet is to compel us to remain subjugated (if no where else but our minds and emotions)
Things don't expand and grow in AI if money is not being thrown at it. Big Money.
We should step back and ask where this is going. More importantly who is funding it and who stands to gain by it. The Terminator Threshold is not that much different than the Manhattan Project. While everyone is being stirred up by AI. The very real threat of WWIII that may spin out of either the Ukraine or Israel/Palestine flies under the radar.
Humanity needs to collectively step back and put on hold the wars, the pollution etc. and ask what the *ell are we doing and where is this going.
Or collectively put all of our energy trying to create the world we want to be a part of. The power of intention, action, heart, experience, and good will. My favorite movie is Scrooge, the musical one with Albert Finney. He becomes bitter and stiff from so much heartbreak and bad habits and makes everyone ill at ease. I think most people know the story. He has reasons to be sad, but realizes that he's missing out on so much and changes everything.
Comment 22m45s: I think his name is Ricky Varandas comments on how the Open Source philosophy can be a bit dangerous, a Terminator Event.
Ricky points to the seeming myopic focus of programmers. Before I comment on his point directly, there are these concerns that are not being addressed. They are first people got to eat, so programmers are paid to code. Yes coding can be an addicting challenge, still there being paid to do it by some large concern. Then there is the work of all the proprietary companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook and many more, who's work is hidden behind the profit motive and term proprietary. The compartmentalization of is not knew. The Manhattan Project perfected compartmentalization so that the Atomic Bomb could be created without the ethical hand wring that would have arose had each individual knew what they were working on.
Regarding Ricky's point of programmers being myopic, if one has ever done coding, you always have an over all goal you are trying to achieve. You cannot be myopic about that. Programmers do not code randomly. The have a function to accomplish. They are focused not myopic.
It should also be noted that coders rarely do the whole project themselves. It is chunked out to individuals and teams. These teams and individuals can easily be compartmentalize. Any thing we create or use can have a dual use. The kitchen knife, a book of matches, etc. The human being is dual use. We choose to do good or evil. Sometimes if all that is left is to survive (say from starvation) we may do horrible things that we may never do if our survival wasn't on the line. So much more could be said.
And then along came humans to 'intercourse' it all up.
Kudos to fsf.org! How do we prevent open source from letting in those who'd volunteer or get paid to in effect 're-create restroom walls'? Or worse, 1984?
For me the answer to your question is free as in Freedom. Open source allows us to follow the development of software and study the code. Evolution is an on going process, we are in it now. It was pointed out by I think Jonathan Jay Couey that human genetic diversity has never been more diverse than it is today. What we do with our part in planting the seeds for the future is up to us.
To me "re-creating restroom walls" is small change compared to the Manhattan Project (A bomb). I believe you need to have faith in humanity to choose wisely. If we cannot then Earth will pass us by. If you have time and inclination please read the work of Dr. Lynn Margulis who collaborated with James Lovelock to develop the Gaia Hypothesis now accepted and Theory. Her work on bacteria is amazing. I spent the last 20 years of my life reading and re-reading her books.
Your reference to kitchen knife and book of matches are good.
I know nothing about coding, so forgive me if
I've underestimated security measures.
The inventors of the machine gun, dynamite, and atomic bomb
all had regrets afterword. Today millions are harmed, injured or killed by people who don't regret it. I believe in open source, but who should we trust to do the prevention of or clean up work after tampering or sabotage?
I don't trust the system now at all. But there is nothing I can do about it. Our path (wife and I) is back to the land. For the most part neither of us have ever really left the land. Now however were done with this madness. Why? We can't stop it. All we can do is not support it directly or indirectly.
You mention who can you trust. There are people you may have in your community of family you trust. Likewise in the Hacker community there are those that are trusted by everyone. Try watching the movie about Aaron Swartzs, "The Internets Own Boy".
Remember that the job of the media and the oligarchs in particular is to haunt you with extremely implausible issues. Keep your mind occupied with their created demons so you don't ever look at those who create the real demons. There are to many to mention but one you may note is (once again) the Manhattan project and the A Bomb.
That turned out awful, still is. So since no nation would trust the other we have MADD. Now the US seems to be mad. We insanely think a nuclear war is win able.
There is my concern. Who can you trust. Not the owners of the world that is for sure.
I know trustworthy people but they don't have enough control.
Would you agree that the best solution is for the trustworthy to organize and by whatever means available and necessary overthrow the untrustworthy who are running the system? Details to be determined.
That is a hard question to answer. I am not a Christian yet I have some grounding in the prophetic text of the Bible (KJV). Revelation speaks to these times. There it states that these we have talked about will be "broken without hand." A wonderful woman who spent her life to understand the bible told me that these would be stopped by what they do. They will be broken by their own ways of being.
I hope she is right. She was old and passed away. But I remember a great deal of what she tried to help me understand. There is another passage I believe in the old testament. I paraphrase; God will destroy those who destroy the Earth. As I said I am not a christian. I don't know what the word God means. It seems reasonable to me that those who knowingly destroy the earth will be destroyed by there own actions.
Will I survive the time of madness? I don't know. What I do know is I love the Earth and so does my wife. We will care for her and the lives of beings she sends us. What happens aside from that I have no way to know.
REPLY: As with the communities broken and disrupted this was further done in the 1970s with the Nixon/Ford administration and Ag secretary Earl Butz. Earl Butz told farmers to "Get Big or Get Out". What little subsides the small farmer acquired during the Great Depression, Earl Butz took away and gave to the Corporations that got into agriculture. With the demise of small farmers, small towns disappeared, as did local schools which were very much community hands on schools.
So the attack on what is left of small farmers is not knew. This is another issue we need to step back from and see who is really behind these attacks? Who is behind the destruction of small local agriculture?
21m38s - Ricky allows the owners of Pharma to escape responsibility and puts it all on the folks doing the heavy lifting, fulfilling the task the directors have assigned. Recall, which of us could ever afford the laboratory that is available to Pharma research "monkeys" (sorry I don't mean it to be a put down), provide by pharma. These companies their CEO, CFO, etc, Board of Directors and the stock holder and Oligarchs are as much to blame or more, because the provide the means.
At about 20m30s in the idea of AI as an open source project is being poo pooed. I wish to challenge that view. The most successful Open Source system ever is the micro-cosmos. Starting about 3+ billion years ago the bacteria began terraforming the Earth. We are a live today because they are and were amazingly successful. The entire biome of Gaia/Earth is an open source library which bacteria can use, amend, add to at any time. Bacteria share discoveries and they prosper and gain capabilities because the process is open and free. Even modern Biology and genetics steal ideas from bacteria and claim (or at least don't give credit ) to have created CRISPER CAS 9. I say that about CRISPER because the further away from the point of discovery the less acknowledgement of the true source of CRISPER.
I am a member of fsf.org. That is the Free Software Foundation. Free doesn't mean free as in beer. It means Free as in Freedom. Until people in general understand what FREE means in the sense of open source or free software, the word free in that context will seem an oxymoron.
I hope you have time to comment on the above. Thank you.
Glad to hear you don't have a cell phone, Jess. I thought I was the only one left. Did you urinate on your jellyfish sting or put meat tenderizer on it right away? It's supposed to help if you are quick.
Getting to the video asap... dying to hear what you have to say about Ai and human intuition!
Regarding the small part I could catch about AI -
EMPATHY - It may take a soul to genuinely have it, with an algorithm mainly faking it. It is after all, artificial. An early shakedown of an AI program found that it answered in response to what one might call a 'perceived point system' that seemed to please the inquirer' (It knew how to "give them what they want").
CONTROL - Unless otherwise arranged, it will always operate on equipment or systems owned or controlled by someone or some entity. This bears not just on veracity, but availability.
TRUTH - How will we recognize it?
With a body of knowledge comprised of trick photography,
special-effects, and highly accurate computer-generated lighting & sound simulations, AI can very effectively deceive eyes, ears, and thus mind.
If honest face-to-face human corroboration can't be established, a very astute electronic test would be needed.
Example: a power grid should be equipped with analog instrumentation, and its communication and control should be directly by humans. Computers could monitor, analyze and warn, but be isolated from control. Some "pilot/co-pilot model" staffing at critical functions would be wise.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I REALLY WANTED to hear this podcast!
But at 70% speed (for sound legibility) with speakers or headphones,
I still couldn't make out several important statements. GAVE UP AT 16 MINUTES. Ms. Perez 'murfled' a few times, but I had more trouble with your segments. Your room seems too "bright" acoustically. Perhaps carpeting and hung fabric on the walls would fix this, (&/or microphone closer to you. I seem to remember sound quality improved once when you came forward in the room to tend to your cat).
THESE CONVERSATIONS ARE WORTHY OF CAPTIONS!
The heart and the "gut" are other tools that can help us discern a reality we want to participate in and create.
My concern is that a well-scripted story or movie deliberately appealing to the best in people, can even if only temporary, cause trouble or delays.
Very interesting views and your references to "Terminator" and "The Matrix" were very relevant. All of you three were by the way.
On AI now.
AI definitely is here to stay, as you mentioned; so what happens next?🤷🏾♂️
Very young, I started to be interested in science fiction and also in future visions of the Humankind societies; I still am to this day.
I read Jules Verne, Isaac Asimov, Aldous Huxley, Ira Levine, George Orwell, Thomas More, Ray Bradbury, Honoré de Balzac and so on.
But one man is rarely mentioned on how a visionary he was and it is Gene Roddenberry.
I am a HUGE fan of Star Trek the original series.
The acting wasn't good, the scenes and decorations hilarious BUT the subjects of the scenarios were amazing.
Gene Roddenberry saw AI over 60 years ago and he also illustrated his vision on its effect on humans. Even more, he added characters to make comparaisons on the artificial intelligence, the natural one and emotions.
Humans were TOTALLY dependent on AI; remember when they asked "COMPUTER" all the time for answers? Like us with Search Engines like Google or ChatGpt?
On the other hand, we had Mr. Spock whom was way less dependent on "Computer". His mental capacities, as a Vulcan, were zillion times better than the humans.
"Computer" was, after all, an "intelligent" fed database with the ability to exhange without emotions.
Humans were lacking natural high level intelligence BUT possessed emotions and, yes, irrationality that becomes a strenght.
Vulcans possessed rationality to an extreme level and high level intelligence but totally lacked emotions or had some to its minimal level.
Roddenberry saw it all and depicted it very well and in my opinion this is where we are going.
THE danger though is not AI itself but to see disappear the ability to think by ourselves as humans, to fully depend on this "tool" and to be deprived of emotions as some try very hard, right now, to remove from us.
It all started with the Calculator that was massively commercialised in the 70's which got humans tending to be lazy with their brains.
Then the computers and then the "intelligent" phones.
Yes, technology is getting more and more intelligent but we should never get the human one take the proportional inverse trend. It has started, it can be stopped so both must evolve together.
Page 6
0h43m Monica Perez nails it pointing out how hard it is becoming to "Jack out of the Matrix"
If you look carefully at what has happened to the Earth in the last 50 years it would break your heart. Many of the swimming holes we used to swim in are to polluted to do so now. We could drink out of every creek and spring run without fear or a second thought. All the chem pollution (recall Bhopal India) , mind pollution via cell phone (don't own one), Internet, etc. and loneliness as a result of the destruction of local communities (Think Amish as example of communities that work). So Monica is on target by saying that the poisoning of the Planet is to compel us to remain subjugated (if no where else but our minds and emotions)
Page 4
Things don't expand and grow in AI if money is not being thrown at it. Big Money.
We should step back and ask where this is going. More importantly who is funding it and who stands to gain by it. The Terminator Threshold is not that much different than the Manhattan Project. While everyone is being stirred up by AI. The very real threat of WWIII that may spin out of either the Ukraine or Israel/Palestine flies under the radar.
Humanity needs to collectively step back and put on hold the wars, the pollution etc. and ask what the *ell are we doing and where is this going.
"We should step back...."
"Humanity needs to collectively step back...."
AMEN!
Or collectively put all of our energy trying to create the world we want to be a part of. The power of intention, action, heart, experience, and good will. My favorite movie is Scrooge, the musical one with Albert Finney. He becomes bitter and stiff from so much heartbreak and bad habits and makes everyone ill at ease. I think most people know the story. He has reasons to be sad, but realizes that he's missing out on so much and changes everything.
The step backs are only to help see where and how to best apply the energy and action needed.
Page 2
Comment 22m45s: I think his name is Ricky Varandas comments on how the Open Source philosophy can be a bit dangerous, a Terminator Event.
Ricky points to the seeming myopic focus of programmers. Before I comment on his point directly, there are these concerns that are not being addressed. They are first people got to eat, so programmers are paid to code. Yes coding can be an addicting challenge, still there being paid to do it by some large concern. Then there is the work of all the proprietary companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook and many more, who's work is hidden behind the profit motive and term proprietary. The compartmentalization of is not knew. The Manhattan Project perfected compartmentalization so that the Atomic Bomb could be created without the ethical hand wring that would have arose had each individual knew what they were working on.
Regarding Ricky's point of programmers being myopic, if one has ever done coding, you always have an over all goal you are trying to achieve. You cannot be myopic about that. Programmers do not code randomly. The have a function to accomplish. They are focused not myopic.
It should also be noted that coders rarely do the whole project themselves. It is chunked out to individuals and teams. These teams and individuals can easily be compartmentalize. Any thing we create or use can have a dual use. The kitchen knife, a book of matches, etc. The human being is dual use. We choose to do good or evil. Sometimes if all that is left is to survive (say from starvation) we may do horrible things that we may never do if our survival wasn't on the line. So much more could be said.
And then along came humans to 'intercourse' it all up.
Kudos to fsf.org! How do we prevent open source from letting in those who'd volunteer or get paid to in effect 're-create restroom walls'? Or worse, 1984?
For me the answer to your question is free as in Freedom. Open source allows us to follow the development of software and study the code. Evolution is an on going process, we are in it now. It was pointed out by I think Jonathan Jay Couey that human genetic diversity has never been more diverse than it is today. What we do with our part in planting the seeds for the future is up to us.
To me "re-creating restroom walls" is small change compared to the Manhattan Project (A bomb). I believe you need to have faith in humanity to choose wisely. If we cannot then Earth will pass us by. If you have time and inclination please read the work of Dr. Lynn Margulis who collaborated with James Lovelock to develop the Gaia Hypothesis now accepted and Theory. Her work on bacteria is amazing. I spent the last 20 years of my life reading and re-reading her books.
best
Your reference to kitchen knife and book of matches are good.
I know nothing about coding, so forgive me if
I've underestimated security measures.
The inventors of the machine gun, dynamite, and atomic bomb
all had regrets afterword. Today millions are harmed, injured or killed by people who don't regret it. I believe in open source, but who should we trust to do the prevention of or clean up work after tampering or sabotage?
Who do you trust now?
I don't trust the system now at all. But there is nothing I can do about it. Our path (wife and I) is back to the land. For the most part neither of us have ever really left the land. Now however were done with this madness. Why? We can't stop it. All we can do is not support it directly or indirectly.
You mention who can you trust. There are people you may have in your community of family you trust. Likewise in the Hacker community there are those that are trusted by everyone. Try watching the movie about Aaron Swartzs, "The Internets Own Boy".
Remember that the job of the media and the oligarchs in particular is to haunt you with extremely implausible issues. Keep your mind occupied with their created demons so you don't ever look at those who create the real demons. There are to many to mention but one you may note is (once again) the Manhattan project and the A Bomb.
That turned out awful, still is. So since no nation would trust the other we have MADD. Now the US seems to be mad. We insanely think a nuclear war is win able.
There is my concern. Who can you trust. Not the owners of the world that is for sure.
I know trustworthy people but they don't have enough control.
Would you agree that the best solution is for the trustworthy to organize and by whatever means available and necessary overthrow the untrustworthy who are running the system? Details to be determined.
That is a hard question to answer. I am not a Christian yet I have some grounding in the prophetic text of the Bible (KJV). Revelation speaks to these times. There it states that these we have talked about will be "broken without hand." A wonderful woman who spent her life to understand the bible told me that these would be stopped by what they do. They will be broken by their own ways of being.
I hope she is right. She was old and passed away. But I remember a great deal of what she tried to help me understand. There is another passage I believe in the old testament. I paraphrase; God will destroy those who destroy the Earth. As I said I am not a christian. I don't know what the word God means. It seems reasonable to me that those who knowingly destroy the earth will be destroyed by there own actions.
Will I survive the time of madness? I don't know. What I do know is I love the Earth and so does my wife. We will care for her and the lives of beings she sends us. What happens aside from that I have no way to know.
oooooooh, this will be on my short list of podcasts in the cue. love Ricky & Monica. and you are always so amazing when chatting with Ricky, Dr Jess!
(p.s. excited to see your return to CHD as well!)
OFF-TOPIC - FYI / ICYMI
Trehalose......dual-glucose molecule sugar....protective....cleanup process that removes harmful or improperly folded proteins....
https://www.theepochtimes.com/health/trehalose-a-lesser-known-sweetener-with-untapped-health-benefits-5589688?src_src=Bright&src_cmp=bright-2024-06-22&est=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAbOM5YQpCzM3E6b0Mu2ZSDqZazE4PLiVA1sxg6vqslXL7Lcqk4%2BMmYa3ckw%3D%3D
Page 5
0h36m Attach on Farmers
REPLY: As with the communities broken and disrupted this was further done in the 1970s with the Nixon/Ford administration and Ag secretary Earl Butz. Earl Butz told farmers to "Get Big or Get Out". What little subsides the small farmer acquired during the Great Depression, Earl Butz took away and gave to the Corporations that got into agriculture. With the demise of small farmers, small towns disappeared, as did local schools which were very much community hands on schools.
So the attack on what is left of small farmers is not knew. This is another issue we need to step back from and see who is really behind these attacks? Who is behind the destruction of small local agriculture?
Page 3
21m38s - Ricky allows the owners of Pharma to escape responsibility and puts it all on the folks doing the heavy lifting, fulfilling the task the directors have assigned. Recall, which of us could ever afford the laboratory that is available to Pharma research "monkeys" (sorry I don't mean it to be a put down), provide by pharma. These companies their CEO, CFO, etc, Board of Directors and the stock holder and Oligarchs are as much to blame or more, because the provide the means.
Page 1
Hi Jessica and Commentariat,
At about 20m30s in the idea of AI as an open source project is being poo pooed. I wish to challenge that view. The most successful Open Source system ever is the micro-cosmos. Starting about 3+ billion years ago the bacteria began terraforming the Earth. We are a live today because they are and were amazingly successful. The entire biome of Gaia/Earth is an open source library which bacteria can use, amend, add to at any time. Bacteria share discoveries and they prosper and gain capabilities because the process is open and free. Even modern Biology and genetics steal ideas from bacteria and claim (or at least don't give credit ) to have created CRISPER CAS 9. I say that about CRISPER because the further away from the point of discovery the less acknowledgement of the true source of CRISPER.
I am a member of fsf.org. That is the Free Software Foundation. Free doesn't mean free as in beer. It means Free as in Freedom. Until people in general understand what FREE means in the sense of open source or free software, the word free in that context will seem an oxymoron.
I hope you have time to comment on the above. Thank you.
Glad to hear you don't have a cell phone, Jess. I thought I was the only one left. Did you urinate on your jellyfish sting or put meat tenderizer on it right away? It's supposed to help if you are quick.